How come these sites are selling Win7 Ultimate for so cheap?

poohbear · 01-05-2013, 12:49 AM

Hey all, i was looking to get a new Win7 Ultimate key and it's selling for $140 on the MS site (to upgrade), but i found sites selling it for $25-$30? They claim its perfectly legitimate and look like legit sites with tons of keys for all kinds of MS products for under $40. They don't appear pirated as i'm sure MS would come down hard on them for selling pirated keys so openly. Heck even the OEM versions are usually $80-$100, so how come they can sell em for $25-$30? Wanted to ask here before actually buying one and getting ripped off, the sites are here:

http://www.nowin8.com/Windows-7-Key/...oduct-Key.html

http://www.buynewkey.com/Windows-7-K...imate-Key.html

http://www.newgenuinekeys.com/WINDOW...ack-1-Key.html

i'm sure there are many more sites like the ones above, can anyone explain why they're so cheap? Thanks in advance.

Steltek · 01-05-2013, 03:37 AM

The are reselling keys that aren't meant for resale (i.e. Technet keys, MSDNAA/Dreamspark keys, academic keys, or volume keys). Eventually, Microsoft will blacklist the keys at issue and they won't work anymore.

A system running with one of those keys isn't any more legal than a system running with cracked Windows activation.

Zaap · 01-05-2013, 04:10 AM

Seriously, anyone that would give their credit card info to any site as obviously bogus as those almost deserves to be ripped off.

Hint: the abysmal grammar, punctuation and craptacular site 'design' with lots of broken pages should serve as hint enough. (Even funnier on the first site is the same pattern of grammar and punctuation mistakes in the "Feed Back" *heh* as is in the rest of the site.)

Believing that Microsoft or anyone else can police the entire Internet for such scams (therefore it must be legit) is just no mindset to ever have online about anything. That couldn't be further from the truth.

I'd wager all 3 (and probably several other sites) are set up by the same scammer(s) to 'sell' pirated keys while they fleece your credit info. And if they're halfway clever they'll go a step further by setting up their own 'consumer report' type site(s) to come up in a Google search that of course gives the legit thumbs up to their scam sites.

tcsenter · 01-05-2013, 04:36 AM

When I check prices for Infinity reference speakers, the cheapest price I can find from an authorized Infinity reseller/dealer is around $12K. But these dudes in a white van who approached me in the parking lot of Walmart offered to sell me Infinity reference speakers for only $600.

Is like....zomaigod, man! How is he does it?! Like...ZOINKS!

poohbear · 01-05-2013, 04:50 AM

but if they're selling those keys, wouldn't people eventually catch on and shut them down? They've been around for a while those sites. Paypal even works with them, so they can't be that bad if they accept paypal payments? no? If they were ripping enough people off and the customers complained to paypal, they'd cut them off, no?

ViRGE · 01-05-2013, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poohbear

but if they're selling those keys, wouldn't people eventually catch on and shut them down? They've been around for a while those sites. Paypal even works with them, so they can't be that bad if they accept paypal payments? no? If they were ripping enough people off and the customers complained to paypal, they'd cut them off, no?

Sometimes it takes MS a while to pick up on this. But furthermore Paypal is in no hurry to cut these guys off; since it's virtual goods they don't want to be involved in dispute resolution if they can avoid it.

No matter how good it looks, no one is legitimately selling Windows for this little. MS doesn't sell Windows to distributors for nearly that little. Plus Microsoft doesn't sell individual keys like this, as they only sell complete packages.

poohbear · 01-05-2013, 07:01 AM

ok what about Win7 Ultimate for $99 OEM, that's more realistic right?

atleast on those sites they note if you change your mobo the keys will cease to work, so it means the keys DO work from the get go, yes?

Charlie98 · 01-05-2013, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poohbear

ok what about Win7 Ultimate for $99 OEM, that's more realistic right?

Newegg sells W7 for $99, $79 on sale (I know, I just got another copy.) MicroCenter sells the same for about $110, give or take. That is a reasonable source.

TBH, I probably wouldn't buy any type of 'licensed' software off eBay... there is just too much potential for fraud. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

lxskllr · 01-05-2013, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie98

TBH, I probably wouldn't buy any type of 'licensed' software off eBay... there is just too much potential for fraud. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Words to live by. I wouldn't buy major software from any company I hadn't heard of. Every company has about the same price for major packages. They might run a special where you get $10 off, but they'll be close to everyone else. If a deal looks fantastic, it's probably BS.

JackMDS · 01-05-2013, 10:56 AM

Domain Name: BUYNEWKEY.COM
Registrar: HICHINA ZHICHENG TECHNOLOGY LTD.
Whois Server: grs-whois.hichina.com
Referral URL: http://www.net.cn

Domain Name: NOWIN8.COM
Registrar: HICHINA ZHICHENG TECHNOLOGY LTD.
Whois Server: grs-whois.hichina.com
Referral URL: http://www.net.cn

Domain Name: NEWGENUINEKEYS.COM
Registrar: HICHINA ZHICHENG TECHNOLOGY LTD.
Whois Server: grs-whois.hichina.com
Referral URL: http://www.net.cn

--------------------------------

[QUOT] They claim its perfectly legitimate[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and we all know that what people claim on the Internet is always True.

Especially when the persons are using this http://www.stopabductions.com/

poohbear · 01-05-2013, 11:10 AM

Thanks for the info jackMDS, how'd u get that info? I'd love to get such info on a few other sites!

lol @ the alien anti abduction site! Too funny!

Steltek · 01-05-2013, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poohbear

Thanks for the info jackMDS, how'd u get that info? I'd love to get such info on a few other sites!

lol @ the alien anti abduction site! Too funny!

http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/index.jsp

Enter the web URL and you can get information about the owners.

poohbear · 01-05-2013, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steltek

http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/index.jsp

Enter the web URL and you can get information about the owners.

Ok thanks!

Maximilian · 01-05-2013, 11:55 AM

Because the sites are clearly run by upstanding moral chaps that simply want to help the poor by subsidizing a fantastic OS for the less fortunate who cannot afford the full price themselves... obviously!

Zaap · 01-05-2013, 03:42 PM

I'm simply stunned that in this day and age this stuff is so easy for scammers. They don't even have to try that hard to fool a large percentage of people who simply can't tell illegitimate from reputable even if you smack them upside the face with total bogusness (which those sites so clearly do.) It's amazing. Kind of sad, but completely amazing.

But hey, legit businesses always use broken english and bad grammar to state 'legitimate' and 'Totally safe' over and over and over again.

Evander · 01-05-2013, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaap

I'm simply stunned that in this day and age this stuff is so easy for scammers. They don't even have to try that hard to fool a large percentage of people who simply can't tell illegitimate from reputable even if you smack them upside the face with total bogusness (which those sites so clearly do.) It's amazing. Kind of sad, but completely amazing.

But hey, legit businesses always use broken english and bad grammar to state 'legitimate' and 'Totally safe' over and over and over again.

On the other hand, there are many seemingly too-good-to-be-true deals out there that really are true. So much excellent freeware is available (sometimes the catch is forgetting to uncheck a toolbar installation), you can buy games less than 1 year old on Steam for $5 to $10 dollars, retail games are randomly given away for nothing (I got Portal for free), Amazon randomly gives away free music albums (I got a ColdPlay MP3 album for nothing for example), there are excellent free-after-rebate software and hardware deals out there (I've gotten Nero 12 Platinum free) and plenty more if you look around (off Craigslist I've gotten an unopened legit retail Win 7 Pro Upgrade for $10 that I picked up from the guy's house, from Goodwill Outlet I've gotten retail Win 7 Home Premium for $1 (Goodwill Outlet stores sell ALL discs for $1 each), and a few weeks ago on ebay I got a foreign language electronic dictionary that sold for around US $500 in 2007 for less than $30 shipped.

There are so many legit unbelievably good deals out there that I suppose it's easy for those without "street smarts" to get fooled by something unbelievable and illegitimate.

ViRGE · 01-05-2013, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poohbear

ok what about Win7 Ultimate for $99 OEM, that's more realistic right?

Nope. The distributor price for Win7 Ultimate OEM is roughly $175.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116997

If you aren't paying within $10-$20 of Newegg, it's not legit. It's not as if Newegg has significant software markups.

Quote:

atleast on those sites they note if you change your mobo the keys will cease to work, so it means the keys DO work from the get go, yes?

Usually. What happens is that once all the keys are activated and MS does a routine audit, they find that keys from the same MSDN/Technet account are activated all over the world (an obvious flag that they've been sold or otherwise not adhering to MS's TOS), and at that point they're deactivated. The point being that these copies of Windows are not legit and your software will not stay working. You're effectively stealing Windows but paying someone for the privilege.

Charlie98 · 01-05-2013, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evander

On the other hand, there are many seemingly too-good-to-be-true deals out there that really are true. So much excellent freeware is available (sometimes the catch is forgetting to uncheck a toolbar installation), you can buy games less than 1 year old on Steam for $5 to $10 dollars, retail games are randomly given away for nothing (I got Portal for free), Amazon randomly gives away free music albums (I got a ColdPlay MP3 album for nothing for example), there are excellent free-after-rebate software and hardware deals out there (I've gotten Nero 12 Platinum free) and plenty more if you look around (off Craigslist I've gotten an unopened legit retail Win 7 Pro Upgrade for $10 that I picked up from the guy's house, from Goodwill Outlet I've gotten retail Win 7 Home Premium for $1 (Goodwill Outlet stores sell ALL discs for $1 each), and a few weeks ago on ebay I got a foreign language electronic dictionary that sold for around US $500 in 2007 for less than $30 shipped.

There are so many legit unbelievably good deals out there that I suppose it's easy for those without "street smarts" to get fooled by something unbelievable and illegitimate.

Much of what you are describing are 'one off' deals... meaning you found a single copy of W7 at Goodwill, or some guy on Craig's List has a copy... not a seller's listing in a marketplace like eBay. Yes, there are deals out there for sure, but that's not what the OP is asking about.

I've dealt on eBay for many years covering a broad range of merchandise, I can tell you there is fraud at almost every level of products I have dealt with... obvious enough that it's discussed in the forums and elsewhere. Not saying don't try it, but research is still the best game in town and, of course, caveat emptor!

ImDonly1 · 01-05-2013, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poohbear

but if they're selling those keys, wouldn't people eventually catch on and shut them down? They've been around for a while those sites. Paypal even works with them, so they can't be that bad if they accept paypal payments? no? If they were ripping enough people off and the customers complained to paypal, they'd cut them off, no?

As if PayPal is the most reputable payment service? All fraudulent sites only accept Paypal. No credit cards only paypal.

Make fake paypal account, take money out. Account gets closed, make new one, profit.

The keys are technet keys and probably work so not many complaints, there are many small sites like this so MS can't take them all down. I doubt they get banned, but it is possible.

Why would you buy this when MS is offering Windows 8 upgrades for so cheap? They offered Windows 7 for cheap before too. There were many more legit ways of getting keys than this.

zephxiii · 01-05-2013, 07:57 PM

May as well get Win 8 Pro upgrade for 40 while u can!! ...CRAP i need to start buying some lol.

Zaap · 01-05-2013, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evander

On the other hand, there are many seemingly too-good-to-be-true deals out there that really are true.

It's not the so-called 'deal', it's the entire presentation.

Those sites are the online equivalent of a guy in a back alley in a refrigerator box with his 'store' name written on the box in crayon passing for a legitimate brick and mortar store. Would it really matter to you what 'deals' the guy says he has with a presentation like that? Most people would run the other way, let alone consider reaching for the credit card.

Yet pretty much the exact equivalent online setup is actually able to make people think it might be legit. I can't help but find that fascinating, but at the same time a bit scary. Don't people realize that virtually anyone, anywhere can set up a fake website in a few minutes, and that many, many, many people in this world are unscrupulous? "But the deal looked really great...!" Well of course it did. It's called the BAIT.

Meanwhile... who in their right mind is going to fill out a form on such an obvious fake site giving who-knows-who your name, address, phone number, paypal login, credit card info...

I read a study once that as people age they lose their ability to easily spot scams (think of the stereotype old person that clicks every single popup, installs spyware because they believed the popup warnings, falls for cons that drain their life savings etc.) But I'm starting to realize it's not just the elderly. I see more and more people all ages that can't for the life of them instantly look at things and tell bogus from legit online, even when the scammer didn't put in that much effort and the telltale signs are bone obvious.

power_hour · 01-05-2013, 11:39 PM

I am wondering if these are "gray" market keys bought from surplus. In other words, legal but not intended for actual resale without a system. Therefore, they have not been used and can be registered. Microsoft discourages this usage but cannot stop it because its not illegal. Anyway that is one theory I have. I could be wrong and they could be scammers. But a public site with a public registration is a bit bold.

Zaap · 01-05-2013, 11:41 PM

Hee hee. Actually I did find one kernel of complete truth on one of those sites:

"Choose your Wanted Edition Here.To Buy Windows 7 Ultimate Activation Key crack here, you will find more surprise."

LOL! Yeah, you will find "more surprise" alright- like your ID stolen and accounts cleaned out! And OF COURSE buying a 'key crack' just screams "legit business". They don't even need to remind me 20 times.

JackMDS · 01-05-2013, 11:52 PM

Giving some of the posts in this thread, I bet that the guys in China read this and do really Big LOL about how gullible some of the American Wishful thinkers are.

-

poohbear · 01-06-2013, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaap

Hee hee. Actually I did find one kernel of complete truth on one of those sites:

"Choose your Wanted Edition Here.To Buy Windows 7 Ultimate Activation Key crack here, you will find more surprise."

LOL! Yeah, you will find "more surprise" alright- like your ID stolen and accounts cleaned out! And OF COURSE buying a 'key crack' just screams "legit business". They don't even need to remind me 20 times.

but if the person is paying through paypal, how is their id or any of their personal info revealed to them? these guys say they prefer paypal, and if they do credit card fraud its a lot more serious than just selling CD keys at a HUGE profit. they don't pay anything for the keys, so in effect they're getting $25 per key which is ALOT of money in china.

01-05-2013, 12:49 AM	#1
poohbear Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,115	How come these sites are selling Win7 Ultimate for so cheap? Hey all, i was looking to get a new Win7 Ultimate key and it's selling for $140 on the MS site (to upgrade), but i found sites selling it for $25-$30? They claim its perfectly legitimate and look like legit sites with tons of keys for all kinds of MS products for under $40. They don't appear pirated as i'm sure MS would come down hard on them for selling pirated keys so openly. Heck even the OEM versions are usually $80-$100, so how come they can sell em for $25-$30? Wanted to ask here before actually buying one and getting ripped off, the sites are here: http://www.nowin8.com/Windows-7-Key/...oduct-Key.html http://www.buynewkey.com/Windows-7-K...imate-Key.html http://www.newgenuinekeys.com/WINDOW...ack-1-Key.html i'm sure there are many more sites like the ones above, can anyone explain why they're so cheap? Thanks in advance. __________________ Desktop: 4790k @ 4.6GHZ \| Noctua NH-D14 \| 16GB (2x8gb) Crucial Ballistex @ CL9 \| Asrock Z97 OC Formula \| Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 \| 250gb Samsung 840 Evo & 240gb OCZ Vertex 3 MI & 2TB WD Black \| Auzentech Forte 7.1 \| Seasonic 760wt Platinum \| DELL U2711 @ 1440p \| Corsair 300R \| Win 8.1 Ultrabook: Zenbook UX32LN \| i5 4200u \| 8GB RAM \| Nvidia 840m \| IPS Matte @ 1080p \| 256GB SSD \| Win8.1

01-05-2013, 03:37 AM	#2
Steltek Golden Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 1,623	The are reselling keys that aren't meant for resale (i.e. Technet keys, MSDNAA/Dreamspark keys, academic keys, or volume keys). Eventually, Microsoft will blacklist the keys at issue and they won't work anymore. A system running with one of those keys isn't any more legal than a system running with cracked Windows activation. Last edited by Steltek; 01-05-2013 at 03:43 AM.

01-05-2013, 04:10 AM	#3
Zaap Diamond Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,180	Seriously, anyone that would give their credit card info to any site as obviously bogus as those almost deserves to be ripped off. Hint: the abysmal grammar, punctuation and craptacular site 'design' with lots of broken pages should serve as hint enough. (Even funnier on the first site is the same pattern of grammar and punctuation mistakes in the "Feed Back" heh as is in the rest of the site.) Believing that Microsoft or anyone else can police the entire Internet for such scams (therefore it must be legit) is just no mindset to ever have online about anything. That couldn't be further from the truth. I'd wager all 3 (and probably several other sites) are set up by the same scammer(s) to 'sell' pirated keys while they fleece your credit info. And if they're halfway clever they'll go a step further by setting up their own 'consumer report' type site(s) to come up in a Google search that of course gives the legit thumbs up to their scam sites. __________________ Z68X-UD3H-B3 \| 2600K \| 16GB 1600 \| HD6870 1GB \| OSX 10.10.2 + Win 7 x64

01-05-2013, 04:36 AM	#4
tcsenter Lifer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Western USA Posts: 17,528	When I check prices for Infinity reference speakers, the cheapest price I can find from an authorized Infinity reseller/dealer is around $12K. But these dudes in a white van who approached me in the parking lot of Walmart offered to sell me Infinity reference speakers for only $600. Is like....zomaigod, man! How is he does it?! Like...ZOINKS! Last edited by tcsenter; 01-05-2013 at 04:39 AM.

01-05-2013, 04:50 AM	#5
poohbear Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,115	but if they're selling those keys, wouldn't people eventually catch on and shut them down? They've been around for a while those sites. Paypal even works with them, so they can't be that bad if they accept paypal payments? no? If they were ripping enough people off and the customers complained to paypal, they'd cut them off, no? __________________ Desktop: 4790k @ 4.6GHZ \| Noctua NH-D14 \| 16GB (2x8gb) Crucial Ballistex @ CL9 \| Asrock Z97 OC Formula \| Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 \| 250gb Samsung 840 Evo & 240gb OCZ Vertex 3 MI & 2TB WD Black \| Auzentech Forte 7.1 \| Seasonic 760wt Platinum \| DELL U2711 @ 1440p \| Corsair 300R \| Win 8.1 Ultrabook: Zenbook UX32LN \| i5 4200u \| 8GB RAM \| Nvidia 840m \| IPS Matte @ 1080p \| 256GB SSD \| Win8.1

01-05-2013, 07:01 AM	#7
poohbear Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,115	ok what about Win7 Ultimate for $99 OEM, that's more realistic right? atleast on those sites they note if you change your mobo the keys will cease to work, so it means the keys DO work from the get go, yes? __________________ Desktop: 4790k @ 4.6GHZ \| Noctua NH-D14 \| 16GB (2x8gb) Crucial Ballistex @ CL9 \| Asrock Z97 OC Formula \| Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 \| 250gb Samsung 840 Evo & 240gb OCZ Vertex 3 MI & 2TB WD Black \| Auzentech Forte 7.1 \| Seasonic 760wt Platinum \| DELL U2711 @ 1440p \| Corsair 300R \| Win 8.1 Ultrabook: Zenbook UX32LN \| i5 4200u \| 8GB RAM \| Nvidia 840m \| IPS Matte @ 1080p \| 256GB SSD \| Win8.1 Last edited by poohbear; 01-05-2013 at 07:04 AM.

01-05-2013, 10:56 AM	#10
JackMDS Super Moderator Elite Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 27,535	Domain Name: BUYNEWKEY.COM Registrar: HICHINA ZHICHENG TECHNOLOGY LTD. Whois Server: grs-whois.hichina.com Referral URL: http://www.net.cn Domain Name: NOWIN8.COM Registrar: HICHINA ZHICHENG TECHNOLOGY LTD. Whois Server: grs-whois.hichina.com Referral URL: http://www.net.cn Domain Name: NEWGENUINEKEYS.COM Registrar: HICHINA ZHICHENG TECHNOLOGY LTD. Whois Server: grs-whois.hichina.com Referral URL: http://www.net.cn -------------------------------- [QUOT] They claim its perfectly legitimate[/QUOTE] Yeah, and we all know that what people claim on the Internet is always True. Especially when the persons are using this http://www.stopabductions.com/ Last edited by JackMDS; 01-05-2013 at 11:04 AM.

01-05-2013, 11:10 AM	#11
poohbear Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,115	Thanks for the info jackMDS, how'd u get that info? I'd love to get such info on a few other sites! lol @ the alien anti abduction site! Too funny! __________________ Desktop: 4790k @ 4.6GHZ \| Noctua NH-D14 \| 16GB (2x8gb) Crucial Ballistex @ CL9 \| Asrock Z97 OC Formula \| Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 \| 250gb Samsung 840 Evo & 240gb OCZ Vertex 3 MI & 2TB WD Black \| Auzentech Forte 7.1 \| Seasonic 760wt Platinum \| DELL U2711 @ 1440p \| Corsair 300R \| Win 8.1 Ultrabook: Zenbook UX32LN \| i5 4200u \| 8GB RAM \| Nvidia 840m \| IPS Matte @ 1080p \| 256GB SSD \| Win8.1

01-05-2013, 11:55 AM	#14
Maximilian Lifer Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12,550	Because the sites are clearly run by upstanding moral chaps that simply want to help the poor by subsidizing a fantastic OS for the less fortunate who cannot afford the full price themselves... obviously! __________________ >2014 >sig line limit of 90 characters

01-05-2013, 03:42 PM	#15
Zaap Diamond Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,180	I'm simply stunned that in this day and age this stuff is so easy for scammers. They don't even have to try that hard to fool a large percentage of people who simply can't tell illegitimate from reputable even if you smack them upside the face with total bogusness (which those sites so clearly do.) It's amazing. Kind of sad, but completely amazing. But hey, legit businesses always use broken english and bad grammar to state 'legitimate' and 'Totally safe' over and over and over again. __________________ Z68X-UD3H-B3 \| 2600K \| 16GB 1600 \| HD6870 1GB \| OSX 10.10.2 + Win 7 x64 Last edited by Zaap; 01-05-2013 at 03:45 PM.

01-05-2013, 07:57 PM	#20
zephxiii Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 177	May as well get Win 8 Pro upgrade for 40 while u can!! ...CRAP i need to start buying some lol.

01-05-2013, 11:39 PM	#22
power_hour Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: nowhere important Posts: 789	I am wondering if these are "gray" market keys bought from surplus. In other words, legal but not intended for actual resale without a system. Therefore, they have not been used and can be registered. Microsoft discourages this usage but cannot stop it because its not illegal. Anyway that is one theory I have. I could be wrong and they could be scammers. But a public site with a public registration is a bit bold.

01-05-2013, 11:41 PM	#23
Zaap Diamond Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,180	Hee hee. Actually I did find one kernel of complete truth on one of those sites: "Choose your Wanted Edition Here.To Buy Windows 7 Ultimate Activation Key crack here, you will find more surprise." LOL! Yeah, you will find "more surprise" alright- like your ID stolen and accounts cleaned out! And OF COURSE buying a 'key crack' just screams "legit business". They don't even need to remind me 20 times. __________________ Z68X-UD3H-B3 \| 2600K \| 16GB 1600 \| HD6870 1GB \| OSX 10.10.2 + Win 7 x64

01-05-2013, 11:52 PM	#24
JackMDS Super Moderator Elite Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 27,535	Giving some of the posts in this thread, I bet that the guys in China read this and do really Big LOL about how gullible some of the American Wishful thinkers are. ----